In spite of the fantastical, genre-busting movies they make, Rian Johnson and directing duo the Daniels (Kwan and Scheinert) have one old-fashioned thing in common: They love structure. In Vanity Fair’s series What Is Cinema?, the directors sat down for a candid conversation about craft and how they created their films Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery and Everything Everywhere All at Once, respectively. 

“Structure is where the thesis of the film emerges,” Kwan says. He uses Alfred Hitchcock’s Psycho as the perfect example of a film that follows (and then breaks) classic rules of cinematic storytelling. Similarly, the first half of Everything Everywhere—a frenetic sci-fi family saga about an immigrant mom (Michelle Yeoh) traversing through the multiverse—is a Matrix-style hero’s journey, Kwan says, while the second half is “a refracting explosion of that story.” 

It took a while to arrive at the final cut of the film, with Scheinert noting that they spent a year “diagnosing problems galore” in the editing room. “That was one of the most humbling things we learned about feature filmmaking,” he said. 

Johnson took a similarly disciplined approach to Glass Onion, the sequel to 2019’s Knives Out. The film follows detective Benoit Blanc (Daniel Craig) as he solves a murder-mystery dinner party gone terribly wrong at the home of an eccentric billionaire. Before he ever wrote a single word of the script, Johnson mapped out the entire story from start to finish, excited to push the franchise in a new direction. “I can’t imagine mustering the energy to do a new movie without feeling like it was something that I had never done before,” he said. “If a good filmmaker makes a movie, it’s like they’ve burned the pirate ship into the sea. They’ve used every idea they have. They’re completely washed up on the shore, empty of everything.” 

Kwan agreed, noting the pressure that filmmakers face when working on a new project. “A lot of the time when you’re starting off, you want to create timeless art, but that’s actually a terrible trap,” he said. “The more you chase it, the less timeless it becomes. Really, what you want to do is speak to the moment and give the people something to chew on and reflect on.”